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Cyonsiaros StrawHat Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.08.16 03:31:00 - [1] - Quote I am new to eve and tried it out just based on some things that the game got right; I see quite a bit of good in eve; but I am also at the same time disappointed at the seemingly most in depth strategic game; with little depth or strategy. The game is literally one of the biggest contradictions I've seen in gaming. What will follow is my impression as a new player - as a successful/competitive gamer. Now here's what is right with eve What dying means - hasn't been touched in mmo's that I've seen since storied ultima online. Risk/Reward is splendid - This system was thrown out ages ago in mmo's because it is not financially viable compared to the alternatives (i.e. mmos for carebears that lead the mmo industry). It's amazing to see a company go in with this regardless of market data - It's like saying screw business success and caring about games instead. I love this aspect. Depth of skills - Character development is cool here. 4 years to skill up isn't so cool; getting a ship in 3 days and spending 2 years to outfit it correctly isn't so cool; but the options in development is cool. Pros: Strength is gained over years in very small increments Cons: Strength is gained over years in very small increments Every other game if you play 8 hours a day and study you're number one; here if you go offline for 4 years and paypal it up you can fly some titan or capital ship. You didn't play right to get there - You just had an account active for a long period. This is good and bad. Good: Seemingly small difference between new guy and veteran Bad: Playing the game doesn't really reward much compared to other games I can't speak on benefits of time because you can just buy an account with the skills already for isk; so I'm not entirely certain of all the advantages this system presents compared to others. As a new player my major gripe with the game seems to be the lack of skill and interaction involved - Please allow me to explain. The strategy as I have seen; seems to revolve majorly around positioning - The skill factor breaks down into relatively few important actions per minute compared to more competitive games. What matters: Positioning in battle; how you enter - how you leave. how you alpha and how you call targets. What should matter: Every percent of capacitor - every cycle of gunfire - every hardener - offense and defense. The decisions each pilot makes each second should matter extensively more than it does to bring more depth into even - a game whose depth is majorly related to the written word more so than anything else. So for offensive and defensive strategies; If I don't think the current combat system has depth; What would I like instead? #1 Capacitor levels should matter (or energy - a second resource added); more so than whether hardeners can be turned on or get turned off. instead of Enough capacitor to run fittings and weapons or not enough; I want to see more depth added. This will be explained further below. A. If a capacitor is near full; resistances and damage mitgation should be 100% of stated values. As capitor energy wanes the resistances should change. If I have 70 all resists at 80% capacitor or higher - I want 50% of stated resists when I have 25% capacitor energy left. I want it to matter how and when I activate hardeners or shoot weapons. I want skill to be a factor. The stipulations for such a system: * Weapons which use capacitor are intrinsically stronger as offense and defense are now both tied to capacitor. * Things which effect capacitor slightly rebalanced * Some mechanics changed/revamped to reflect change as to make it worth smoothly Scenario which can exist: Player A clicks on activating abilities (warp jammer. speed module, neuts and weapons Player B turns on theirs. Eventually someones hardeners turn off or the static dps on one side of the fight is higher. Scenario when Capacitor matters more or when a second attribute called energy is employed: Steps in a fight Player A activates all his weapons at once for a big shield breaking alpha or something (plays like the game as is) Player B waits until after A's alpha; as to not use capacitor or energy at a foolish time The Strategy in this: Player B takes less damage as energy/cap is only diverted towards defense. Player A used xyz energy to alpha; if B had alpha'd he would have less energy/cap to tank; lower cap/energy levels means he takes more damage. Player B just outplayed A in this step (or didn't) what matters is reaction and planning mattered. Strategy and depth was added and small decisions now decide battles instead of a few larger ones. So player A turned on all of his systems at once; which is majorly prevalent in the game in many scenarios; but now player A is punished for not knowing when to toggle or cycle. Player A turned everything on and is losing more energy/cap per second and thus is likely to be outplayed through skill based combat. Why is making pilots individual small scale decisions such as weapon/hardener/utility activation important? Action. I just watched a stream of eve; The main jist of what I guess was a battle that lasted a while was supercaps got caught. Now let me put what happened into detail: Supercaps got caught. Let me write out the action as if I was commentating what happened; supercapitols got caught. 99% percent of the action to me can be explained by positioning. Warping in or out at the right time; traveling the right way; knowing when to hold and fold them. Picking targets correctly. The initiation of a battle and the movement is 99% of what matters in an eve fight. To me; having unlimited options in advancement - skilling and fitting is an awesome factor but small scale individual decisions don't seem to be as present or note worthy as they could be. They can be important; but it isn't important every second. Two posts to follow.
Cyonsiaros StrawHat Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.08.16 03:32:00 - [2] - Quote Lets describe further what I would prefer. A game more skill dependent than it currently is. More depth and areas for players to shine in than currently exist - Bringing to life the depth and detail present in the game. Currently eve is an insanely in depth game with little relative value to that depth. I would like decisions from the ground up to matter more - in relation to the actual depth of the game. I've put fourth some weird idea of capicitor mattering more or involving a second resource called energy. How does it work and why? What do I want with this second attribute or redefined capacitor? From this point on I will note the second stat as Energy. What is energy? A measure of a ships current capabilities or expendable resource which effects both the ships offensive and defensive actions. Well wait doesn't eve already have that? Yes but its not nearly as skill dependent as it could be. Lets say ships have varying energy pools; the most important factor is the percentage of energy remaining. Some weapons use energy as a resource - armor shields and hardeners rely on energy but the relationship is percentage based and the idea is lower energy ships take more damage. This brings new weight to every single unit of energy and every interaction of a battle. When you shoot matters - What you shoot matters - leaving weapons auto attacking throughout an entire engagement can be very bad - leaving hardeners on when not being focused could very well make you a weak target when primaried if you wasted your resources all fight instead of reading and reacting and adapting your playstyle throughout a fight as to outplay another player through knowing when and how to spend energy more efficiently. Turning weapon systems utilities and shields on and off now guages pilots on skill more so than what is available presently. Because personal decisions now matter more so than before; there is more strategy and depth involved in combat. This makes the game more exciting; opens up streaming possibilities and commentator situations that can attract revenue in various ways. Hell there would be a competitive scene and the games best players could get sponsorships - the game could be featured at competitive gaming events like dreamhack - newfound forms of revenue and worth can now be applied to the game. When something of interest is happening more regularly and more decisions are weighed and granted weight - excitement and spectatorship now flourishes. The current game feels very in-depth but this depth doesn't deliver like it does in other games with far less depth and complexity which have better thought combat systems. Eve screenshots are awesome ; eve stories are awesome - combat isn't as awesome as words and screenshots can tell the story as our brains/imaginations fill in the gaps.This makes eve feel like a good read - But it's not a good watch. The game without more decisions in combat just is not that fun to watch. I feel the combat system is so blatantly simple and has many areas of limited importance where individual skill isn't as much as a factor as it could be. That being the thoughts surrounding such a change; lets continue with energy. So energy (or capacitor) Is used for both offense and defense - instead of whether your utilities are offline or online - now every action and your use of this resource and the specific % is of extreme importance in deciding a winner. Ex. Player A 600 energy Destroyer Player B 700 energy Cruiser Player A finds player B and looks to engage. After weighing the options decides that player B has projectile weapons equipped and has determined player B's capabilities and played out the opening combat in their head. Player A did this in 2 seconds or less because they read and react like a professional. Player A knows projectile turrets do very little damage but do not effect the shooters energy pool. The significance of this intel means Player B will not exhaust themselves with weapons systems and instead will only exhaust themselves in taking damage or running utilities or hardeners at the wrong time. 3 seconds into combat: Player A after assessing the situation launches an opening knockout bomb. The bomb costs 150 energy to launch but on impact drains 250 energy and stops energy regeneration within Player B's ship for 5 seconds. The 250 energy drain was determined based on the amount of the damage bomb did to the target and after any energy drain resistance modules are taken into account. 4 seconds into combat: Anticipating an alpha strike Player B turns on hardeners draining 10 energy per second per meta level of hardener A volley of gunfire follows 6 x5 lazer beams which deal moderate damage and drain player A of 100 energy. The lazer alpha volley has drained player B of 100 energy. 5 seconds into combat: Player B toggles off hardeners to conserve energy as player A has some weapon cooldown time until the next volley as player B is a professional as well
Cyonsiaros StrawHat Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.08.16 03:32:00 - [3] - Quote After the alpha and initiation player A turns on their hardeners in anticipation of return fire. We're now a few seconds (5) into combat and I will detail whats occurring Player A used 200 energy of 600. and has an energy recharge rate of 30 per second with all defensive systems offline and -15 energy per second with all hardeners online. Player A used many module slots to achieve this regen rate and thus their decisions in fitting make up a playstyle tailored to their strengths. At 3 seconds when player A bombs he regains 30 energy between second 3 and 4 of combat and another 30 energy between 4 and 5 seconds. At the fifth second player A has 460 energy and is losing -15 energy per second from this point on as hardeners were activated. Player B is down 350 energy from 700 and still has 3 seconds before his normal energy regeneration continues as he was knockout bombed. Player B could have in a split second reaction from being bombed; in anticipation of Ex. Player A 600 energy Destroyer Player B 700 energy Cruiser Player A finds player B and looks to engage. After weighing the options decides that player B has projectile weapons equipped and has determined player B's capabilities and played out the opening combat in their head. Player A did this in 2 seconds or less because they read and react like a professional. Player A knows projectile turrets do very little damage but do not effect the shooters energy pool. The significance of this intel means Player B will not exhaust themselves with weapons systems and instead will only exhaust themselves in taking damage or running utilities or hardeners at the wrong time. 3 seconds into combat: Player A after assessing the situation launches an opening knockout bomb. The bomb costs 150 energy to launch but on impact drains 250 energy and stops energy regeneration within Player B's ship for 5 seconds. The 250 energy drain was determined based on the amount of the damage bomb did to the target and after any energy drain resistance modules are taken into account. 4 seconds into combat: Anticipating an alpha strike Player B turns on hardeners draining 10 energy per second per meta level of hardener A volley of gunfire follows 6 x5 lazer beams which deal moderate damage and drain player A of 100 energy. The lazer alpha volley has drained player B of 100 energy. 5 seconds into combat: Player B toggles off hardeners to conserve energy as player A has some weapon cooldown time until the next volley as player B is a professional as well After the alpha and initiation player A turns on their hardeners in anticipation of return fire. We're now a few seconds (5) into combat and I will detail whats occurring Player A used 200 energy of 600. and has an energy recharge rate of 30 per second with all defensive systems offline and -15 energy per second with all hardeners online. Player A used many module slots to achieve this regen rate and thus their decisions in fitting make up a playstyle tailored to their strengths. At 3 seconds when player A bombs he regains 30 energy between second 3 and 4 of combat and another 30 energy between 4 and 5 seconds. At the fifth second player A has 460 energy and is losing -15 energy per second from this point on as hardeners were activated. Player B is down 350 energy from 700 and still has 3 seconds before his normal energy regeneration continues as he was knockout bombed. Player B could have in a split second reaction from being bombed; in anticipation of an alpha strike following activated his 1 use a minute energy injector - this module boosts energy much like a cap booster. Player B didn't because he knows Player A's alpha would be insignificant and he could easily recover in a few seconds. So what alternate paths can arise from this sort of in depth combat? A) Knowing when and where to use weapons and defensive systems matters several fold compared to their current significance. B) Knowing when and how to engage once on grid matters C) Modules which protect energy are now weighed against other modules in terms of survivability D) 7 or 8 turrets of a single type are now markedly less valuable over split systems which may turn out to be of greater use in certain conditions - same with modules - More strategy is derived in the fitting of a ship and cookie cutter builds don't exist as a cure all versus the majority of conditions. Once again my interest is more involved combat where decisions on every scale weigh more and define pilots. This places importance more heavily on each player involved in combat than is currently available. It will effect in a huge way all small scale pvp as well as large scale blob like pvp. It also adds another mechanism for taking on greater numbers.
Cyonsiaros StrawHat Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.08.16 03:33:00 - [4] - Quote The downfall of this type of system is that bad players will be hit hard. at least 60% of all players in every corporation will be less effective based on their skill to read react and anticipate. The other 40% are now markedly more valuable and the top 1% of players will really shine based on their reaction time. The other noteworthy downfall is the viability of this sort of reaction in massive all out war pvp where lag is present. Split-second reaction time doesn't really matter if for 30 seconds straight your ship is warping but not moving anywhere or your systems take 30 seconds to turn off or on. Not a downfall of this particular system so much as it is the effect of the games current lagged state in heavy grids. The cons: Players who aren't capable of reacting quickly will be more so penalized than normal - skill will matter much more. New section of tutorial. The pros: Easy to scale in relation to how the game is currently set. Makes non-blob pvp markedly more interesting to watch Denotes certain players as skilled based on their mental faculties and ability to send signals from their brain and carry out those actions with their muscles Adds entertainment value based on player skills presented which lends itself to viewership which opens up the following: Adds to the possibilities and grants less importance to ship counters as skill is now a factor in combat more so than it was Sponsored players - Game attention and retention based on the streaming of Eve now a successful venture Sponsored tournaments - When how you play 1v1 10v10 or greater now matters more and skill can be quantified in a new and easier way the game can now attract attention from professional gamers. The advancement of the game and genre and the attention it can attract when it is now interesting to watch and skill dependent can outweigh quite easily players who are disappointed in a system where which they might be less powerful when they don't have the gaming skills to match their ship fits and combat. Large alliances will not easily shed members who cannot perform; but specialized small pvp organizations may shed weight in the interests of having an elite
Cyonsiaros StrawHat Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.08.16 03:33:00 - [5] - Quote crew of individuals. This would be due to how elitism works and how smaller numbers can easily take on larger or better fit numbers of opponents based on the skill present within the fleet. SP and wealth will be slightly devalued overall and skill now majorly valued in certain organizations. Any player with both the skill and the sp and wealth is just going to be amazing. Would this sort of change; something that adds more to combat and makes for more active engagements scare the general populace or be found of interest? The idea is quite simple and can be based on energy or capictor with a good few changes. The value of such a change or similar change or of any change is quite high as for what it can do for spicing up pvp. As a new player I like alot about eve but I can't very well seperate pvp from even industry or mining as far as how much action is involved. It's cool and has a lot going for it - It just has much less activity and decisions than I'd like. It is not easy to quantify a given pilots skill under the current system. I've studied the game a bit high sec low sec etc. etc. I see no difference really in high sec carebears or low security pvpers; I can't determine if any of them are actually any good at the game except in particular areas. Are 160 players in a battle deciding it; or is it a skilled commander with amazing engagement and positioning whos decisions are carrying many players? Should players be more easily quanitifable and guaged on more factors as far as skill is concerned? What I can see is the combat system - although it has its thrills could be expanded several fold through some changes which wouldn't be backbreaking to implment. The game could be several times more interesting to spectate, stream or otherwise watch. I know one thing; I can get a big thrill in this game from a fight and its outcome. My heart would be pounding more if each second counted tenfold and my reading and reaction skills were stress tested more so. I mean even in the instances where you can beat better fitted ships despite the feat being a tiny less likely in the old system; it will be an explosion if I miss a cycle or I'm a second late and lose the fight when I really could have won if I simply toggled and rotated perfectly. Energy levels can be listed on a ships name or hidden from view and based on what skilled players feel current energy levels are; but in sponsored events it would be nice for all energies to be shown from a gm view or something so that spectators can follow easier each step in battle and actively learn and get better at pvp themselves. Eve doesn't translate well into media format - It reads well - it just isn't action packed enough to warrant much viewership. Pvp has alot of important decisions and quanitifes skill in certain ways - but no where near where it could be in this aspect.
Cyonsiaros StrawHat Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.08.16 03:42:00 - [6] - Quote Shameless Avenger wrote: tl;dr has reached a new record. Valid point; to paraphrase: The game is good but doesn't translate well. In fact the game is less than interesting to watch. I take a mechanic and explain its value and how it can make pvp more active and skill based than what currently exists and how this mechanic can also fix the games worth from a viewership; tournament; sponsorship and professional gaming standpoint as far as retention of players - attraction of new players and competition is concerned. To me eve can be a bit too long didn't read; very in depth; yet overly simplified to the extent where it is not very interesting to watch - but makes for a very good story or tale when translating events which transpired into words.
Cyonsiaros StrawHat Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.08.16 03:55:00 - [7] - Quote Gun Gal wrote: id say soemthing witty, but alas, theres nothing else really to say to yet another person who started eve and seems to think he/ she/it is the authority on how to fix EVE. like it or leave it, this is EVE ohh, and ya, tl;dr That's cool. I see you note something broken in eve; how many years have you played and how little have you contributed? Perhaps you are still learning? I don't know. What I do know is I make my salary from games. I didn't go to school for games; I've just been successful in games through performance or study of markets involved. I wonder; did you too focus your lifes work around games and the monetization of such or do your skills lie elsewhere? Now I'm not a millionaire but I do make several thousand dollars a month to live off of. I'm not currently sponsored for tournaments or other play and instead majorly capitalize on markets of games whose currency is easily converted to U.S. dollars. Now I've studied games for many years and my background education is Business and Psych oriented. I attended rutgers business and I'm about to join my sister at penn for psychology. Both fields have helped me vastly in different areas of life. I'm no game developer; I don't claim to be- But given I make a living from games I am in some position to make that call; I mean gaming is my career. On a side note Eve cannot be monetized very easily. The currency is not worth it and this is why you don't see farmers and bots as much as other games. The hours needed per payout an hour is terrible compared to other markets. People in my field do not profit off of games like eve unless they are secondary retailers for ccp. 8 billion isk a day could support someone alone but not lead a single income family anytime in my country very well.
Cyonsiaros StrawHat Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.08.16 04:04:00 - [8] - Quote Webvan wrote: It'd be readable if it were formatted correctly rather then the huge superheated gravity crush. Try Start->Computer->Format->OK Right this is actually a problem I ran into. The slop mess could be translated to a informative 1 page worthwhile read; but it will require some extensive editing. Litterally I just wrote it as I thought it and a train of thought without editing is not the most efficient or informative way of relating information. I will edit down the details a bit - there were several matters of utmost importance but the ordering is sub par. I will edit it down to a bite size as time warrants so that it could be of some use I wouldn't expect anyone to read 5 pages as is. I would have ignored it personally - However, I do believe there is some information of importance to be seen here. I just have yet to dedicate the time to edit it correctly so that it is not a novel - a novel which does not read particularly well to begin with.
Cyonsiaros StrawHat Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.08.16 04:30:00 - [9] - Quote hyhn wrote: Cyonsiaros StrawHat wrote: crew of individuals. This would be due to how elitism works and how smaller numbers can easily take on larger or better fit numbers of opponents based on the skill present within the fleet. SP and wealth will be slightly devalued overall......t. I have to stop you right here --- first, I would suggest you join some player channels and talk with ppl that have some experience with the game long term. That will clear up a lot of misconceptions you have about the game. In all fairness what compelled me to post was an active Stream Channel where the games streamers chat. There are some veterans amongst them; the stream of importance was the supercap incident of earlier where several were caught but the event only had 1,000 viewers for a very short time period. Furthermore there is little telling if any of these players or even a 10 year vet is of much use as skill is not easily quantifiable. hyhn wrote: [quote=Cyonsiaros StrawHat]second , Eve is supposed to be a game in a dark, cold, cruel, harsh environment. How can it be all these things if you devalue wealth and SP ? It is a trap that I see a lot of older pilots falling into but the essence of meaningful pvp is the fact that your choices against another player matter -- you better make the right ones or you will lose big. The slight devaluation of these elements is a by-product of a mechanic which would make pvp skill based. Sp and wealth should matter more than skill? By how much? --- To a previous poster - Energy neuts and shield break and recharge %'s and sweetspots are no secret to me - the mechanic I suggested has a stronger relation between "energy" and defense/offense than is currently in-game. Thank you for the link although it is important for you to understand when I say energy; it is not when you as an eve player think of energy; nor is it mana. I don't regard energy and capacitor as the same thing in my post; I note capacitor is a measure of resource and next to it could be an energy resource; or the two could be intertwined. More emphasis in the mechanic suggested is placed on actively engaging in pvp and less bland pvp where everyones positioned with all modules 100% on for long durations without any emphasis of resource management besides the very little amount that actually exists in game. I will tell you it is much less advanced as is and means little in comparison.
Cyonsiaros StrawHat Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.08.16 05:45:00 - [10] - Quote Post was re-written. The first 5 pages of this thread have been removed with directions to the new thread which is in the appropriate forum. This will better explain the idea I hope. Have a look- if the formatting is still bad - please let me know

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